Outliers

attorney richard crowe: Mr. Loeb, do you know the difference between right and wrong?

richard loeb: Yes, sir.

crowe: You think you did the right thing in this particular matter?

loeb: In the Franks case?

crowe: Yes.

loeb: Absolutely not.

crowe: And you know that it is wrong to kidnap a boy?

loeb: Yes, sir.

crowe: What is your idea about the right or wrong of getting a boy and kidnapping him?

loeb: It is wrong, sir.

crowe: You know the consequence of this act, don’t you?

loeb: Yes.

crowe: What was the reason you told other stories as to your movements on that day?

loeb: Well, in the first place, for fear of detection myself, but I think that the main thing running through my mind all through this case, all through the questioning, has been the condition of my folks, and that is especially so because my father is very sick. That has just gone through my mind. I think I have told them now enough afterward.

crowe: Is it the attendant disgrace that accompanies this?

loeb: In relation to my folks.

attorney joseph p. savage: And you feel remorse for them?

loeb: Yes, sir.

savage: When was the first you felt it?

loeb: I felt sorry about the thing, about the killing of the boy—oh, well, that very night. But then the excitement, the accounts in the paper, the fact that we had gotten away with it and that they did not suspect us, that it was given so much publicity and all that sort of thing, naturally went to the question of not feeling as much remorse as otherwise I think I would have. I think if that thing had not appeared in the papers, if people had not come to me and said, “The fellow who did that was insane,” things like that, I think I would have felt a great deal more remorse. And since I have spent some time alone these last two or three days, it has dwelt on my mind a great deal—not the question of my folks but about me, and the disgrace has not been the only thing I thought of.

dr. william o. krohn: Had you any feeling of detracting or giving up the scheme?

loeb: No, sir, I don’t think so.

krohn: You always felt as if you were going to go right through with it?

loeb: Yes, sir. I could tell you the truth, sir. Maybe I had a feeling of that sort. Do you mean that I expressed it or that I felt it?

krohn: No, that you really felt it?

loeb: Yes, I really think that I did.

krohn: Didn’t want to be called a quitter.

loeb: Yes, that’s just it. I have always hated anybody that was a coward.

krohn: You realize now, though, that you had the power to refrain from doing a wrong thing?

loeb: Yes, sir.

krohn: You had the power of will and choice to decide whether you would do it or not?

loeb: Yes, sir.

krohn: There was no feeling on your part of failure to work out a certain scheme or anything else about doing it?

loeb: No, sir.

krohn: You had full control of doing it?

loeb: Yes, sir.

dr. hugh t. patrick: I think this question has probably been asked before, but looking back at the very beginning of this thing again more or less vaguely, perhaps, what was your incentive, what did you have in mind to get things started? Perhaps you don’t remember.

loeb: I don’t know. That’s the one thing, you know, when this thing comes up and I feel this way, I feel so sorry, I have asked myself that question a million times: How did I possibly go into that thing, how did I do it?

patrick: You cannot trace the original nucleus of it, can you, Mr. Leopold?

nathan leopold, jr.: Yes, sir, I think I can. I think it will be to my disadvantage to do so. But again I have enlisted Mr. Savage’s help, and he tells me to come out and just tell the whole thing. There is no question of being swayed by momentary excitement at all. I am sure, as sure as I can be of anything, that is, as sure as you can read any other man’s state of mind, the thing that prompted Dick to want to do this thing and prompted me to want to do this thing was a sort of pure love of excitement, or the imaginary love of thrills, doing something different. Possibly, as the doctor here has suggested, the satisfaction and the ego of putting something over, as the vernacular has it. The money consideration only came in afterward, and never was important. The getting of the money was part of our objective, as was also the commission of the crime, but that was not the exact motive. That came afterward.

crowe: You wouldn’t take ten thousand dollars out of my pocket, if I had it?

leopold: It depends whether I thought I could get away with it.